tl;dr I think this is something that happens from time to time but I think I need to change distro for a while. And I just realized this long post is for me, because I have to deal with my ideals and I am not really happy to do that, but I am not having fun with Debian recently and I need to solve it.
After ten years of #
Debian I see Debian changing in something that I don't recognize or I don't feel comfortable with it. Many years ago Debian was also synonymous of innovations, on every fields, today what happens in Debian is, along to slow, behind the scene, like the Risc-V port but for the Desktop area there is nothing exciting and since the #
systemd debate I had the feelings that Debian simply refused to lead in favor on just following the events. I mean I am really prone to think if tomorrow Ubuntu is shipped with Just snaps that Debian will follow the same, honestly DEB/DPKG/APT are just old as sysvinit and if you changed the latter there is no reason why you can't change even the former.
Today there are a tons of very good Desktop oriented distros, it is just me and Debian that we are stick like ten years ago. Today we have community project like #
ElementaryOS, #
ZorynOS or #
LinuxMint, and sponsored distros like the same #
Ubuntu, #
PureOS and #
Pop OS!. Without forgetting #
ArchLinux, #
Fedora and #
Opensuse #
Leap and #
Tumbleweed. I probably will not choice the last three big; and among the ones I quoted early only PureOS is a Debian (testing) based distro, and the #
Purism is also the only company that gives back to Debian, which makes PureOS a really strong candidate however because my laptop is a System76 one probably I will end to install Pop_OS!
When I bought my laptop the first thing I did was to erase any trace of *buntu... I really can't handle Canonical, it is from when Ubuntu just meant "I am unable to install Debian", I really don't like the behavior of Canonical in every sense, this is why I would not ever use a distro based on Ubuntu.
What, from my point of view, makes Debian superior respect the other distro available is because the
DSFG, because it can't be only about technology! Technology without ethic is dangerous for all us and produce pollution, weapons, etc... Technology with an ethical approach produces wellness for everyone and produces also free software and distros like Debian.
This is why I am really reluctant to leave Debian even if for a while; and #
GuixSD is not ready yet for a desktop use, and probably it is not even desktop oriented. But in Debian there is not space if you aren't a devs and the Debian users aren't really prone to accept changes and every debate in Debian fall down because Debian must be Debian as is known while you can change constantly if you respect your ideals.
The informatics is my entertainment and today I am not really happy with Debian, hence I am looking around. I am watching Pop_OS! closely.It is based on two of the pieces of software that I like the lesser, Ubuntu and #
Gnome3, however it is modern and it works as a modern distro should do. For example it was able to install the "virtual box guest additions" out of the box, it recognized the executable file inside the "virtual cd" automatically. That was pretty impressive, at least for me. With Pop_os!/Ubuntu I can install all the QT applications as snap by default and keep my system clean while I have the snap software always updated.
Those are cool things, that aren't important in order to make your computer or OS usable, so I don't pretend that Debian must follow the same path, but, as a matter of fact today Debian is not following any path if not just collecting upstream software to produce a stable distro (IMHO). I am confident that in the future Debian will shine again, probably the competition with GuixSD will trigger this change, but in the meantime I will install Pop_Os!
#
gnu #
foss #
floss #
linux #
freesoftware #
linuxdesktop
Hartmut Noack 6 months ago
I also do not subscribe to the false analogy of SysV init and apt/dpkg/any Linux package management. Especially snap is absolutely not better than a classical package management, while systemd in fact solves some design problems of SysVinit quite good.
As far as I can see today, Debian will sty my No1 choice for the server, if Ubuntu would really choose to abandon apt/dpkg I would consider Suse and Arch (in that order) for the desktop...
Daniel 6 months ago
I don't see a false analogy, today the Debian package system doesn't provide delta updates, roll back, confinement or per user install. It belongs to a different era, where the technology and infrastructure were totally different from today. It works but it is old, there are others package manager that are simply better just because are modern, like Nix or Guix. I am not a big fan of Snaps but with the snap you can keep your system base clean while you can install all the trash that you want per user and if something get wrong simply you roll back. Snaps target are server and embed devices, and it solves all the limitation of DPKG/APT.
The moment when the cloud began a business and companies started seriously to invest in it is also the downturn of Debian as primary choice for the server. It makes sense Debian is not a profit company hence it can... show more
I don't see a false analogy, today the Debian package system doesn't provide delta updates, roll back, confinement or per user install. It belongs to a different era, where the technology and infrastructure were totally different from today. It works but it is old, there are others package manager that are simply better just because are modern, like Nix or Guix. I am not a big fan of Snaps but with the snap you can keep your system base clean while you can install all the trash that you want per user and if something get wrong simply you roll back. Snaps target are server and embed devices, and it solves all the limitation of DPKG/APT.
The moment when the cloud began a business and companies started seriously to invest in it is also the downturn of Debian as primary choice for the server. It makes sense Debian is not a profit company hence it can compete nor even has the scope to be leader in the market, but it is a fact.
In the 2008 this was the situation about the web market
Ten years later Ubuntu doubled the Debian base:
Probably Debian is going to fall down more, so the idea the Debian is for server it is another false assumption. Today Debian is not for Desktop and not for Server, or it can be both but it does anything special if not being stable, but this is not enough when companies like Ubuntu can offer ten years of support.
From my point of view the adoption of systemd has been just a lack of identity, other distro like Gentoo and Slackaware simply decided to not adopt a core component where just the RedHat man decides, pretty wise indeed; the best for Debian would be simply, with more effort, to make Debian init agnostic.
I am, then, concerned that it will be the same if Ubuntu decides to ditch DPKG in favor of Just SNAPS, this will open a new debate with an obvious outcome.
For me the problem is the lack of identity or objectives, it should be the universal distro but with system it had to ditch the kFreeBSD kernel because systemd, and today all the major distro are based on the same assets Gnome3 and systemd, but this is not a standardization this an homologation.
Debacle 6 months ago
Don Little 6 months ago
Hartmut Noack 6 months ago
Ubuntu offers a somewhat modernized Debian with professionally maintained Repos, so, one can use it comfortably with XFCE (Fluxbox, Plasma you name it) its a top notch Linux if used without accepting all the Canonical stuff...
Debacle 6 months ago
Isaac Kuo 6 months ago
The bottom line for me is that Debian works well for me, and its repository system is unmatched - this really helps me out. In contrast, Ubuntu's repositories are lacking for me. If I need to go out into the "universe" ... well, it's hit and miss how well it's maintained and how well it just plain works without causing issues with other stuff. Debian's pretty good for that.
Bottom line is - Debian reduces the headaches I have to deal with.
If there are other alternatives which could reduce my headaches, then that's something I'll consider.
(I use Ubuntu for my Microsoft Azure cloud VMs, because they come with off-the-shelf images. Just a few clicks to spin up. So, for them Ubuntu reduced my headaches compared to Debian. But for these headless VM s... show more
The bottom line for me is that Debian works well for me, and its repository system is unmatched - this really helps me out. In contrast, Ubuntu's repositories are lacking for me. If I need to go out into the "universe" ... well, it's hit and miss how well it's maintained and how well it just plain works without causing issues with other stuff. Debian's pretty good for that.
Bottom line is - Debian reduces the headaches I have to deal with.
If there are other alternatives which could reduce my headaches, then that's something I'll consider.
(I use Ubuntu for my Microsoft Azure cloud VMs, because they come with off-the-shelf images. Just a few clicks to spin up. So, for them Ubuntu reduced my headaches compared to Debian. But for these headless VM servers, I don't need many software packages.)
Daniel 6 months ago
However it seems we are missing the point here. I use Debian only as Desktop OS, I use it with testing and with the pinning enabled. I use a FrankenDebian there's no way for me to wait 2 years for use application that are available now, I can handle the crash it is just my computer.
I already reported as Debian is loosing ground as distro for server, but as distro for desktop is even worst, unless you are totally insensitive to any improvements, like my brother, but it is also insensitive about Debian Xfce or Xubuntu, he just uses what I installed for him. But this is not my case! I use Debian because the social contract and because it can run also a rolling distro, however I think it needs to redefine its objectives and bringing back a clear identity that it is not just being stable. There are a plenty of stable distros that are rock solid.
Don Little 6 months ago
Daniel 6 months ago
Tedel 6 months ago
Daniel 6 months ago
Isaac Kuo 6 months ago
Debian Testing is more something useful for people who want to help Debian development - in particular help development of Debian Stable. It is not as well supported as either Stable or Unstable, and you have periods like the current status - during a freeze you have to live with having no more non-security updates while things are prepared for the release of the next Stable.
I use Debian mostly as a desktop OS; even my main server is used as a desktop PC attached to my main TV. I generally prefer Debian Stable as it reduces my headaches. But if there's some killer feature not available in Stable I'll use Unstable.
Daniel 6 months ago
Debian is supposed to use as stable but I like the rolling way, I am not a developer I just like the rolling system but I always find Arch too much extreme and beside the social contract I have always preferred using community distro.
But if Debian would be, hypothetically, available only in the stable form probably I wouldn't use it as main distro.
Hartmut Noack 6 months ago
Anyway: I do use Debian on the server and as of now nobody could explain to me, how I would be better off with CentOS or Ubuntu. On the contrary.
See: most Linux servers, that are more than just ad-throwers, are not running infrastructure but applications. Solid software programs that compute data and manage documents based on Java, Python and in most cases: PHP.
The demands for the OS are: stable, secure, flexible. The latter means: flexible enough to run 3 different Java Servers on the same machine plus a dozen websites interactin with these that are build on either PHP or Python and use Apache as their httpd.
Debian meets these demands perfectly well, especially the first 2.
I have an application that is in development state (not perfectly optimized, that is), that gets a complex large dataset from a JAVA GIS and renders it to 30.000 lines JS code for Leaflet in about half a second. It starts shivering, when I ask it to do about 7 or 8 tim... show more
Anyway: I do use Debian on the server and as of now nobody could explain to me, how I would be better off with CentOS or Ubuntu. On the contrary.
See: most Linux servers, that are more than just ad-throwers, are not running infrastructure but applications. Solid software programs that compute data and manage documents based on Java, Python and in most cases: PHP.
The demands for the OS are: stable, secure, flexible. The latter means: flexible enough to run 3 different Java Servers on the same machine plus a dozen websites interactin with these that are build on either PHP or Python and use Apache as their httpd.
Debian meets these demands perfectly well, especially the first 2.
I have an application that is in development state (not perfectly optimized, that is), that gets a complex large dataset from a JAVA GIS and renders it to 30.000 lines JS code for Leaflet in about half a second. It starts shivering, when I ask it to do about 7 or 8 times that much but most trouble in that case is in the Webbrowser that has to render the result....
Of course we are motorized accordingly but anyway: I do not see, how this would run even faster and more reliable on CentOS or Ubuntu.
As for the desktop: I never considered it a real problem to have some unused applications installed on a desktop machine. But I consider it a major issue, to have a snap loop device for every stupid little program I d like to have occasionally. And even more so I like to have full force and full integration of serious software such as Ardour or Eclipse or Kate: they have to connect to Jack and find 3rd party plugins and they have to connect to ssh as connected by using KDE Wallet etc... in Fluxbox.
Software installed with apt does all that.
Daniel 6 months ago
As I wrote you can constantly changing yourself if you follow your principles, Debian can be fluid, it doesn't have any income budget to reach, it is not for profit hence is free to do whatever it decides; but I look around and I see the people are happy with Debian as is, so it is my personal issue, and since the moment I can't change Debian probably I had better to change distro instead. This is eventually the point.
Eric Buijs 6 months ago
Daniel 6 months ago
glad to see you here!
Since the moment my Laptop is a System76 one, the natural choice is Pop!_Os. I am already starting to compare Ubuntu with Pop! and I found the latter more intuitive than Ubuntu...
Eric Buijs likes this.
Eric Buijs 6 months ago
I heard of Pop!_Os but never used it myself. I should try it sometime. I currently use Ubuntu MATE on my Desktop PC and like it so much that I want to install it on my (very old) laptop too but it never hurts to try something else.
We'll keep in touch.
Daniel 6 months ago
I use Friendica as main account and Diaspora from my phone. Pop!_Os is pretty neat, I mean it is almost a carbon copy of Ubuntu but it has its philosophy...
https://pop.system76.com/docs/difference-between-pop-ubuntu/
I tried Mate on Debian but eventually I found Xfce4 more modular, along wayland that is not a priority for me, Xfce4 needs just an integrated dock and an expose-like function to be almost perfect. It has a bad copy of the Gnome-Shell activity that is completely useless and ugly.
You know what? I installed Devuan (testing/beowulf) + Runit on my working virtual machine and it is blazing fast, unbelievable, so fast that I would install it on my other laptop with Debian Testing. I am pretty sure the culprit is Lightdm however I really recommend it, I am not sure if with OpenRC is the same faster because I decided to use Runit.
Eric Buijs likes this.
Debacle 6 months ago
Your description of the problem is very accurate in my opinion: Some people (not only you) would like to see different smaller or larger changes about what Debian is or how it works. But for every single small or large change, you will find both people in favour and against it. There was a majority for changing to systemd, but there is absolutely no consensus about moving away from apt and dpkg. Debian exists for more than ¼ century. I'm pretty sure, it will still exist in ¼ century from now. We need to be very careful about what changes we do.
Recently, one developer blogged about why he left Debian for not using modern, web based tools. Maybe others would consider leaving Debian, if such tools would be mandatory to use in Debian, e.g. myself.
Debian is conservative in many aspects. That's why I like it, but Debian can't be anything to anyone.
Debacle 6 months ago
YMMV, but I don't run Debian in the same way as I did 20 years ago. 20 years ago, I had one or two servers with Debian stable, and all applications on top of it. That was the era of LAMP etc. Now I have a couple of servers with Debian stable and almost no applications at all. Instead, there are dozens of
systemd-nspawncontainers, again with Debian, which run the actual applications. The Debian containers can be stable, oldstable, oldoldstable, or in some cases even mixtures of testing, unstable and experimental. So far, this works well for me.Daniel 6 months ago
snapdand didsnap install gimp, this is desktop oriented.Debacle 6 months ago
Yes, systemd-nspawn is clearly for the server. Of course, you can
apt install flatpakandapt install snapdon Debian. So far, I never needed that. Something, that I would like to see in Debian, is an easy way to run normal programs in flatpak like isolation. E.g. they would not be able to access my private keys etc. That's a security feature missing from standard Debian packages, AFAIK.Daniel 6 months ago
I see in the NIX system a great improvement, if you combine APT with NIX you don't need anymore to have 3 branches but you can have simply a stable version with all the testing packages always in rolling state until you don't decide to freeze your status for whatever reason...
Debacle 6 months ago
Yes, the
*ixstuff is neat. There was an interesting talk by Debian developer Vagrant at last years DebConf: My Crush on GNU Guix.Soon, we will be able to
apt install guixon Debian. Not so sure about nix, but let's see.Daniel 6 months ago
Daniel 6 months ago
Thanks for sharing that video, it was very interesting.
Debacle 6 months ago